That Pesky Rebel Flag

[mmcd3182]

Originally Posted by TinkerBell

So when people where chained, torn from there homes and put on a ship and sent to america by force, from england, they where not slaves even thought they worked for no money just a place to lay down and a little to eat? hmmmm sounds like a slave to me.

But were they property?

Were they on a list of ownership... like a table, or a cow?

[demopolite]

Originally Posted by TinkerBell

So when people where chained, torn from there homes and put on a ship and sent to america by force, from england, they where not slaves even thought they worked for no money just a place to lay down and a little to eat? hmmmm sounds like a slave to me.

White people were not allowed to be owned by individuals. They could not be property. They might be very poorly treated prisoners of the state (the state still kills people today, you know), but they were not property of an individual.

True slaves weren't being punished for crimes -- they were just being purchased. Their children were owned by the slaveholder.

This did not happen to your ancestors unless your ancestors were Africans. That is historical fact.

[brad]

Originally Posted by demopolite

White people were not allowed to be owned by individuals. They could not be property. They might be very poorly treated prisoners of the state (the state still kills people today, you know), but they were not property of an individual.

True slaves weren't being punished for crimes -- they were just being purchased. Their children were owned by the slaveholder.

This did not happen to your ancestors unless your ancestors were Africans. That is historical fact.

I think that the point being lost here is that many atrocities have occurred throughout history. Indentured servants, slaves, prisoners of Natzi Germany, etc. etc. all these things happened and there is nothing any of us can do to change the past. I think the majority of the people who fly the rebel flag do so because they think it looks cool. Much like why someone would have a butterfly or a rose tatooed on his/her leg. Its a personal preferance that one chooses to display the flag. In this country we have that right and I for one am very glad we do.

I remember as a kid seeing the flag on top of the General Lee and thinking how cool it looked. I so wanted an old Dodge with a rebel flag painted on the top. I never would have associated that flag with atrocities towards my fellow man. I think many today don't think of that association either. They just think it looks cool.

I for one was raised in retail and would never display anything that was offensive to anyone. Not on purpose, anyway. I do, however, like the look of the rebel flag, not for what it may mean to any group of people or any individual person, but just because it looks cool.

[demopolite]

And that is...ultimately...getting back to the point of the thread, brad.

Thank you for that! I didn't mean to get off on a tangent but the "white people were slaves, too" fallacy is one of those historical inaccuracies that really bothers me.

[2lib4dem]

Originally Posted by saddlebum

WHOA ! The "current remnants of slavery" ? After going back over this thread several times, it became evident that the history of slavery would eventually be mentioned . Admittedly history can be offensive but it happened and it's not going away no matter how much we would enjoy ignoring such .

There can never be justification or excuses for slavery . But the public display of "that pesky rebel flag" and/or denying the complete history of slavery are unproductive . To my amazement, many black people of my generation were unaware of the true history of slavery . Some actually thought white men sailed to the shores of Africa, simply herded up a group of black people and sailed to the South . There's much left out when we don't examine the details of how horrible the extraction of black people from their homeland and the transporting them to their final destination really was . Thousands died on the trip over and many had already died at the hands of their brothers in Africa .

Many years ago I read a novel , "The Sun is My Undoing", about the slave trade . The author, who I don't remember, even knew the names of the many tribes . The book was at least 2 inches thick and was very informative but difficult to read because of the cruelty . It was a best-seller 50-60 years ago .

Black people today should be extremely proud that their forefathers were strong and resilient enough to survive those terrible ordeals . Generations of white people have recognized, sympathized and contributed to their introduction into this society .

"The remnants of slavery "? A black man's tribulations today are less than trivial to what their forefathers experienced . These "remnants" shouldn't be much of an obstacle .

[2lib4dem]

Saddlebum, Yes there are current remnants of slavery. I did not say that comtemporary blacks face the same obstacles that slaves face. It not even close. But I am sure you would agree that, as a whole, whites have finincial, societial and family advantages. A significantt number of black, including myself ,have worked hard to achieve substantial financial success. We had to work at a disadvantage. Unlike many whites, most black did not have significant family finincial resources that were passed from generation to generation. Additionally, blacks are AMERICANS and can only hold acountable AMERICA. For you to tell blacks that they should be proud of the resilence of thier ancestors is condescending.

[2lib4dem]

Originally Posted by Meisterschutze

I fly the flag to represent the states rights for which my ancestors fought and killed for. The America flag, on the other hand, represents globalism, abortion, homosexuality and ther crap, so it's not for me.

Are homosexuals or women who have abortions not Ameicans? You only reinforce negative perception of those who fly the rebel flag.

[CedarSam]

Ok...I don't fly one..but I like the design, I don't hate people that do, I love living in a country that still has a few freedoms of choice.
I was at Mobile Flea Market once....a guy had a booth selling Dixie Outfitter Tee shirts.
He sold tons of them.....
Young girls bought them because of the cute puppies and kitten on the back.....each one has a Rebel Flag.
The guy selling them told me and my brother he only sells shirts with Rebel Flags because it helps him spread his messege.
Not sure what that messege was but he did say he got a kick outta young white girls wearing rebel flags in public...he didn't like mixed couples.
He made his living at this....I do like the designs, but I think now when I see one of these shirts.....how does the wearer feel about the flag on their back?
I think too much I guess..lol....but how many wear these shirts and even think about whats on it?
Oh well....I'm just rambling...

[demopolite]

Anyone besides MR want to address my analogy above?

If your grandfather were a Nazi soldier, and you were proud of him fighting for what he believed in - right or wrong - would you fly a Nazi swastika or wear one on your shirt or put one on your truck?



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[AUFAN]

Originally Posted by demopolite

Anyone besides MR want to address my analogy above?

If your grandfather were a Nazi soldier, and you were proud of him fighting for what he believed in - right or wrong - would you fly a Nazi swastika or wear one on your shirt or put one on your truck?



Posted via Mobile Device

Untill I were to get in that situation I really could not have a answer for that question. I really dont know what I would have done if he had been a Nazi soldier. But I do know someone that has a tattoo of the swastika and he says it was a teenage mistake. I dont hold it aganist him or think any different of him than I did before I saw it. He is a good person in my eyes. He just made a bad choice of tattoos.

[Mystic_Rhythms]

Originally Posted by AUFAN

Untill I were to get in that situation I really could not have a answer for that question. I really dont know what I would have done if he had been a Nazi soldier. But I do know someone that has a tattoo of the swastika and he says it was a teenage mistake. I dont hold it aganist him or think any different of him than I did before I saw it. He is a good person in my eyes. He just made a bad choice of tattoos.

I think it boils down to simply this: a few bad apples can spoil the whole bunch. Even I view the swastika as a horrible symbol of the Jewish holocaust but I have also read more into the history of the symbol. Believe it or not, the swastika was first used as a symbol of peace (I'm assuming much like the peace symbol that was used alot in the 60's and 70's). It took one man (for lack of a better word) and his croonies to turn it into something very vile and evil. Him and his followers that were non-ignorant of what his grand plan was took something good and made something bad of it. In my eyes, the same goes with the Confed battle flag. We have the KKK, Crow and what other white-power supremicist that may be lurking, taking something that represented the army of a coutry (small one though), and used it to fulfill their own agenda. I despise anyone who uses the flag that a few of my ancestors fought and died for to press the issue of something that has no place in this country what-so-ever. I still look upon the battle flag with alot of humbleness, not quite as much as Old Glory.

[saddlebum]

"Condescending" ? For the first time in my life the pesky rebel BATTLE flag is becoming appealing and attractive .

[demopolite]

AUFAN, what about an adult who chose to wear a swastika? What would your impression be? Would you believe him if he said "I harbor no ill will toward Jews, I'm just proud of my heritage"?

Would you if you were a Jew?


Posted via Mobile Device

[2lib4dem]

Originally Posted by saddlebum

"Condescending" ? For the first time in my life the pesky rebel BATTLE flag is becoming appealing and attractive .

Saddlebum,
Why? Is it because a black man is taking you to task? Are you not used to blacks speaking their minds? I have no problem with you speaking yours. I just don't happen to agree with you.

[Kagan]

Originally Posted by Meisterschutze

The America flag, on the other hand, represents globalism, abortion, homosexuality and ther crap, so it's not for me.

I do not apologize for that groan. Old Glory is Old Glory. I don't particular care to see it burned with fire...or with words.

Originally Posted by TinkerBell

So when people where chained, torn from there homes and put on a ship and sent to america by force, from england, they where not slaves even thought they worked for no money just a place to lay down and a little to eat? hmmmm sounds like a slave to me.

Indentured servanthood was voluntary. There were two ways to get the choice of becoming an i.s.

First, a person who didn't have enough money to move to America could agree to be an i.s. They agreed to work off the cost of their sailing ticket...which could be quite costly by today's standards. They would basically have their pay garnished the amount of the sailing ticket. This could at times take up to 7 years, but never longer. Those who became i.s. through this means did NOT work for free. They simply worked off the "loan" of the sailing ticket. Many of these were skilled workers: blacksmiths, wheelwrights, shipwrights, clerks, carpenters, silversmiths, etc.

Second, a person who had been convicted of non-violent crimes in England could also receive a sentence from the judge to go to jail or go to America. Oglethorpe settled Georgia with collection of debtors' prison inmates. They opted to come to America and face pioneering hardships. They generally worked off the cost of shipping them to America as i.s. under the same conditions as those previously mentioned. Also, they might have their previous debt tacked onto their i.s. agreement.

Neither group was prevented from owning property or even businesses. Those who became businessmen while they were i.s. could actually "buy off" their loan/debt early with profits from their business.

No, indentured servanthood was nowhere near slavery.

Originally Posted by CedarSam

The guy selling them told me and my brother he only sells shirts with Rebel Flags because it helps him spread his messege.

It would be interesting to know what his message was.
I'm sure that I've heard it somewhere before.

Originally Posted by demopolite

If your grandfather were a Nazi soldier, and you were proud of him fighting for what he believed in - right or wrong - would you fly a Nazi swastika or wear one on your shirt or put one on your truck?

*&@%# NO!

Would I be proud if an ancestor fought in the Afrika Korps? Yes, that organization fought with the same elan as did their famous commander. I'm sure that there were other German units that had similar records. But to sport the swastika?

*&@%# NO!
Nazism is racism carried to the ultimate extreme.