That Pesky Rebel Flag

[demopolite]

Dude....seriously...I'm not upset. Haven't been this entire thread. This isn't and hasn't been a get mad and pitch a hissy fit thread, it's been a calmly discuss why you fly the Confederate flag or why you don't fly the Confederate flag thread.

You seem to the the only one who keeps harping on "people getting upset." All the rest of us are just talking. If you are not concerned about what other people do, then don't participate. If you are, then participate. I really don't care.

As I said, my entire life I've heard people say that they flew the Confederate battle flag because of "culture and heritage." I'd like to flesh that out and see what it means. If you don't want to do that...then don't. If you do, then do.

[BackhomeinBama]

Originally Posted by demopolite

Dude....seriously...I'm not upset. Haven't been this entire thread. This isn't and hasn't been a get mad and pitch a hissy fit thread, it's been a calmly discuss why you fly the Confederate flag or why you don't fly the Confederate flag thread.

You seem to the the only one who keeps harping on "people getting upset." All the rest of us are just talking. If you are not concerned about what other people do, then don't participate. If you are, then participate. I really don't care.

As I said, my entire life I've heard people say that they flew the Confederate battle flag because of "culture and heritage." I'd like to flesh that out and see what it means. If you don't want to do that...then don't. If you do, then do.

Perhaps we have different definitions of "offended". To me (and the free online dictionary) it is defined as:

1. To cause displeasure, anger, resentment, or wounded feelings in.
2. To be displeasing or disagreeable to: Onions offend my sense of smell.
3. a. To transgress; violate: offend all laws of humanity.
b. To cause to sin.

You are attempting to find the reasonings for people flying the flag, just as I am attempting to find the reasonings why flying the flag is such and issue to those who are offended to the point of labeling them without even getting to know them.

We are both trying to discover something here, and it looks like neither of us are making much headway...

[demopolite]

Okay...I can see that. It's just kind of distracting to have two completely seperate lines of discussion going on in the same thread.

But, for those of you still reading, I am interest in hearing from those of you who do fly the stars and bars on what that "culture and heritage" actually is and exactly why it is best represented by flying the Confederate battle flag. I still haven't seen anyone really get into why that flag in particular -- rather than the national flags of the CSA or the bonnie blue -- holds "heritage" value or why most people who fly the Stars and Bars know very little about the actual history of the CSA.

[AUFAN]

Originally Posted by demopolite

Here's the thing, though:

Do you think that potential friend who happens to be black would bother to tell you that they were offended, or would they just assume that you were a virulent racist and try to avoid you altogether? In other words, could the flag not act as such an outward sign that those offended would figure that you were hopelessly ignorant and it wasn't even worth confronting you about it?

I don't know the answer to that...but it's some food for thought.

I belive that if that person is a real friend they would let me know how they really feel about me having the flag. I have respect for others and their feelings and always have. but to make a big deal over what I choose to wear, Fly or tag is my right. Just like it is their right to wear their X shirt. To me its not much difference than different churches you attend or different politics you choose to deffend or support. People are just different in so many ways.

[demopolite]

Originally Posted by AUFAN

I belive that if that person is a real friend they would let me know how they really feel about me having the flag. I have respect for others and their feelings and always have. but to make a big deal over what I choose to wear, Fly or tag is my right. Just like it is their right to wear their X shirt. To me its not much difference than different churches you attend or different politics you choose to deffend or support. People are just different in so many ways.

I'm not talking about people who are already friends, but rather about first impressions. What first impression might a rebel flag give to black person who meets you for the first time? To think about the opposite, do you think you would choose to get to know someone better if they were wearing a "Black Power" shirt or a "Viva la Raza" shirt?

For better or worse, first impressions make a lot of difference in whether we choose to get to know someone better.

[AUFAN]

Well if they meet me before they see the flag on my truck they will know that I am not a racist. If I were they would not have met me in the first place. Their impression would be There is another withe honky *** red neck that hates me as much as I hate them. But that is not me. As I said before. My truck looks like a red neck truck and the tag was on it when I got it. It just seemed to fit the truck well. Me, I am far from being a racist. You can ask anyone that I have been around in the last 40 years. My mopther taught me to look past the color of a persons skin before I make a judgement towards them. That is something that I have always lived by and have tried to teach my own kids the same. Be nice to everyone untill they give a reason not to be nice to them. Being racist is something that you learn and not something that you was born with.

[demopolite]

Originally Posted by AUFAN

Well if they meet me before they see the flag on my truck they will know that I am not a racist. If I were they would not have met me in the first place. Their impression would be There is another withe honky *** red neck that hates me as much as I hate them. But that is not me. As I said before. My truck looks like a red neck truck and the tag was on it when I got it. It just seemed to fit the truck well. Me, I am far from being a racist. You can ask anyone that I have been around in the last 40 years. My mopther taught me to look past the color of a persons skin before I make a judgement towards them. That is something that I have always lived by and have tried to teach my own kids the same. Be nice to everyone untill they give a reason not to be nice to them. Being racist is something that you learn and not something that you was born with.

And I know that you are not...which is why I don't understand why you -- and others like you -- would want to display a symbol that signals to those members of a particular race who don't know you personally that you are, unless you have some actual allegiance to the symbol.

Case in point: There's a shirt that I want: an olive drab tee with a picture of Che Guevara on it...with a big red circle around his face and a big read line through it. Why? I'm anti-Castro, anti-Che, anti-glorification-of-the-crimes-of-communism-in-popular-culture. Will that shirt piss some people off? Probably...but I really believe in the message. If you don't believe in the messages associated with the symbol, then why display the symbol?

[Sweet Pea]

Demopolite, you stated in a prior post about first impressions. Do you care what someone's first impression is of you? I couldn't care less. You can't judge a book by looking at its cover. So why put so much in first impressions. Five people can be looking at the same thing, I wonder how many different first impression you get. Bet 3 or more.

By the way. If I fly the Confederate Battle Flag, it is out of respect for my Grandparents that fought the battle. Right or Wrong, they thought it was right at the time. One gave his life.

[AUFAN]

Originally Posted by demopolite

And I know that you are not...which is why I don't understand why you -- and others like you -- would want to display a symbol that signals to those members of a particular race who don't know you personally that you are, unless you have some actual allegiance to the symbol.

Case in point: There's a shirt that I want: an olive drab tee with a picture of Che Guevara on it...with a big red circle around his face and a big read line through it. Why? I'm anti-Castro, anti-Che, anti-glorification-of-the-crimes-of-communism-in-popular-culture. Will that shirt piss some people off? Probably...but I really believe in the message. If you don't believe in the messages associated with the symbol, then why display the symbol?

If they dont know me then why should they make a judgement towards me. Why not look at me as and indivual and not by the first impression they have and give me a chance to expain why I have it on my truck. Like I said be fore. MY TRUCK LOOKS LIKE A RED NECK TRUCK WITH A RED NECK TAG!!!!! Plain and simple. The truck is not who I am. Its a truck. and BTW..... What the Hell is a red neck?

[Sweet Pea]

AUFAN, You could always get you a tag that says: This truck is protected by a pit bull with aids! Now how can any one be offended by that!

[saddlebum]

A redneck is a person who works out in the sun , thus getting their neck sunburned . A person doing this type of physical labor is associated with being extremely uncouth, loud, uncultured, over-bearing, under-educated, stinky, gun-toting, beer-drinking, having dirty finger nails, corny bumper stickers, ........and everything you are Aufan, so don't be concerned , you/we pass the "smell" test......and so do most of our friends .

[Mystic_Rhythms]

When I see the Rebel Flag flying, I don't ask myself, "I wonder if that person hates blacks, Jews or any non-white." Honestly, usually the first thought in my mind is, "Wow! Wish I had a bigger flag now!"..lol. Seriously though, personally I am more fond of the Rebel Flag than the CSA flag because the stars and bars was the flag that was carried into battle and bled for and died over. Anyone in the military will tell you that even today, military formations have a flag bearer that carries the flag. Even though the flag is not carried into an actual battle today on a staff and flown high, it's very symbolic. Those stars and bars were actually carried out onto a battle field and the poor soul carrying it was probably the first one to catch a bullet. It has blood on it, and many people died defending it just as man died defending Old Glory. How could anyone put that kind of dedication and service down regardless of what side they were fighting for? They fought for what they believed it.

[Bamassee]

Just to throw this out there......

History

History, after all, is not the past but only the present account of it -- an account that may say less about the subject than about the period in which it was written.
The people who followed this flag never wanted to overthrow the American government. They wanted to establish their own government, as their fathers had done in the first revolution.
Those knowledgeable of the reasons for secession and the ensuing War Between the States realize that the slavery was not the consideration, but because of unfair tariffs levied against southern businesses by the northern-sympathetic congress. The battle flag became the symbol and rallying point of the southern forces when the north invaded to force us back into the union.
Gov. Zell Miller of Georgia says the current flag "exhibits pride in slavery." As a professor of history, he should know that 90% of the soldiers in the Confederate Army didn't own any slaves and that Lincoln, between 1861 and 1862, didn't free any slaves in Maryland, Delaware, Kentucky, Missouri, or Washington D.C.; places where he had the power to do so.
It is up to us, the descendants of these brave men, to take back our flag and to see that it is used only as a symbol of pride in our great Southern Heritage.
Over one million Southerners, our ancestors, fought for four years under the Confederate battle flag. These men fought, and many died, for fundamental principles of Constitutional government given to us by the Founding Fathers. Although defeated by overwhelming manpower and resources, they have left us a great legacy of bravery, sacrifice, and devotion to duty , home and family.
Prior to the Civil War, the United States government supported slavery, and long before that, the English did as well. They began trading slaves in 1562.
The slave trade was introduced into the new world in 1503 by the Spanish.
Massachusetts was the first colony to legalize slavery in 1641.
When the Declaration of Independence was signed July 4, 1776, slavery was in all 13 colonies/states.
Slaves were imported only under British and Spanish rule prior to the Revolutionary War or under the American flag. None were imported under the Confederate government.
The focal point of the slavery issue is to rewrite history at the expense of fact. History is neither good nor bad, merely fact upon fact.
The Battle Flag was not raised over slave quarters or slave auctions.
The Confederate Constitution forbade the importation of slaves. Slaves were only imported under the Stars and Stripes in post-colonial America!
It is ludicrous to think that educators and the general public are willing to accept the validity or lend credence to opinions and statements initiated by individuals who apply contemporary social standards to historic events. Yet, this is exactly the standard used by many of our opponents who so convincingly demonstrate their insensitivity and ethnocentrism by issuing derogatory hypotheses about the name of Admiral Raphael Semmes and our Southern heritage.
Our ancestors had the right idea -- they created the Confederate States of America and fought under its banner because they were people of vision. They knew that through continual endeavor and self-discipline, under and equitable constitutional form of government, that they could achieve an egalitarian society full of opportunities to own one's farm, a home, or a business, without being impoverished by high taxes for which little or no benefit returned to the community. They did not go to war to take over or subjugate the North, but fought as their ancestors had during the American Revolution, for freedom and independence, and the opportunity to improve their lot by the sweat of their brow. All they wanted was the chance to better themselves and improve the quality of life for future generations, without interference of one-way Yankee taxes and politics.

Southern Blacks

Both Blacks and Whites served under the banner which some would now banish.
3,000 armed Blacks were with Stonewall Jackson in Frederick, Maryland, in September 1862. They served in an integrated southern army struggling for an independent nation.
The historicrecords of pro-southern Black military involvement under the Confederate battle flag was engraved in fact with their sacred blood. Their sacrifices along side of their white southern brothers have earned them honor of southern memories.
To the estimated 93,000 blacks who served the Southern cause during the war, the battle flag represented their hope for freedom in a free and independent nation.
Confederate blacks first engaged Union blacks at the battle of the Crater in Petersburg. The fighting was very tough, and at close quarters. Each side was motivated by love of country, devotion to duty, and the causes they represented.
Each followed his own flag.
Ed Smith, professor of history at American University inWashington, D.C., has publicly argued that the Confederacy would not have lasted four months, much less four years, without the support of Southern blacks. During years of extensive research, Smith has located numerous instances where blacks served the young Confederacy not as chattel, but as patriots.
Absurd, you say? Smith likens blacks serving the Confederacy to blacks serving in the jungles of Vietnam -- serving in a country which had not yet provided full civil rights. You may recall that the Voting Rights Act was not passed until 1965, long after many blacks had died in those faraway jungles and all of American's other wars. The deeds of these men stand today as a shining testimony to patriotism. Smith, incidentally, is a black American.
BLACK PARTICIPATION IN THE WAR. The truth is that Black Yankee regiments were segregated units and generally ostracized by the regular and volunteer forces. However, Blacks in the Confederate Army were integrated in existing regiments, treated with dignity and respect, served along side and received the same accommodations as their white counterparts.

Symbols

"Symbols of the past. How can we rage against one and not include others?" (Lewis Grizzard)
The fiery cross is the sign of the Klan, not the battle flag, although they parade it and the American flag.
To say that a mere symbol can generate hate represents a primitive, superstitious cognitive process. Poor race relations are increased by the Nazi mentality of those minority groups who make vicious attacks on the heritage of their "perceived opposition." In essence, they neglect to respect their "opposition."
Symbols can be difficult, because they mean or convey one set of values to one segment of our society and something else to another. That is the nature of symbolism.
If a flag should be a "symbolic summation of community values," then none could be more worthy than the values of the Confederate soldier.
If we start tearing down monuments to conform to some present day value system thathas taken 217 years to evolve, or to cower to some obviously biased writer's version of history and political correctness, where will it end?
The Confederate soldier and his flag are an honorable part of this nation's history that deserves the respect of all Americans.
If the "symbols" of racism are to be suppressed, what is to be done about the causes? The slaves were brought here under the Union Jack, kept in bondage by the various state flags and the U.S. flag. If one is to be suppressed, all should be. Let's not be hypocrites.
Symbols mean a variety of things to various people. That is the nature of symbols. Today, to those who venerate history, the Confederate battle flag conveys a sense of honor, duty, and sacrifice. To those with dark agendas, it symbolizes hate, discord, and polarity.


source:http://www.scv.org/documents/genworks/colors.htm

[AUFAN]

Originally Posted by saddlebum

A redneck is a person who works out in the sun , thus getting their neck sunburned . A person doing this type of physical labor is associated with being extremely uncouth, loud, uncultured, over-bearing, under-educated, stinky, gun-toting, beer-drinking, having dirty finger nails, corny bumper stickers, ........and everything you are Aufan, so don't be concerned , you/we pass the "smell" test......and so do most of our friends .

No doubt that if I did smell you would let my smelly @$$ know it. Yes, Most of our buddies do past the test.

[AUFAN]

Originally Posted by Sweet Pea

AUFAN, You could always get you a tag that says: This truck is protected by a pit bull with aids! Now how can any one be offended by that!

I am sure Rev Al Sharpton or some fancy suited lawyer (Not talking about you Dlite) could find out some way of turning it around to say that I offend a person with AIDS or whatever else they could think of.