That Pesky Rebel Flag

[books_24]

Typically, I like to stay out of these conversations, but I am going to post here. To answer Demopolite's question, I do not agree with the use of the Rebel flag. When I see it, I feel much the same as she does.
I do believe that people have the right to their freedom of speech. I am not ugly to people who display the Confederate Flag. I do, however, realize that their feelings about race and my feelings about race are quite different. Since this is an important issue in my life, I am less likely to try to get to know people once I see them with the flag. These preconceived notions may not be right, but that is what the flag has come to represent. I also agree with a lot of what Aufan is saying. However, I still disapprove of the flag on his truck. I probably would not tell him it offended me, though, since it is his right to have it.
There are many more things that offend me besides the flag. I usually do not tell people about that either. I am sure I offend many people, and I do not really care if I think I am in the right. So why should they care if they offend me?
To put a note in about blacks and slaves fighting on the side of the Confederacy...yes, some may have fought because they wanted to. But many of these blacks were sent to fight in place of their slaveowners or sons. They did not have guns or proper weapons; many did not wear shoes. So while it is true that they fought, many of them were forced to fight. The Civil War was about many issues, but the main one was slavery.
IMO, we have not overcome the effects of the actions of our ancestors to this day. The world still is not free of racism or prejudice. Nor will it ever be. I do know that at least one of my ancestors owned slaves, because Andrew Jackson is my great great great uncle or something like that. However, I am completely ashamed of that fact and do not want to know if any more did. I appreciate where I came from. I would not be who I was today, obviously. But I am also ashamed of many of the things I have done in my personal history. I do not feel bad saying I am ashamed if my ancestors owned slaves. They were wrong. Plain and simple. I am embarrassed to have to explain that to my children one day.
I had a friend in college that I became close to. I went to her house one day, and her entire bathroom was decorated with the flag. I told her it offended me, and she gave me her reasons for having pride in it. I still love her and we are still friends. But had I seen her bathroom before I knew her, I probably would not be friends with her. That may be prejudice on my part, but I have a general understanding of what the flag represents, and I do not agree with it.
Sorry this was so long.
To close, I believe in the Constitution, but it was written without other races in mind, in my opinion. There were obviously problems with it, or it wasn't complete, since there are so many amendments. I am proud to be an American and embrace my freedom. Therefore, I also believe those who do not share my feelings should be able to embrace their freedom, too. Right or wrong.

[mmcd3182]

Originally Posted by BackhomeinBama

No need to get upset. Apparently, it offends you to the point that you ask people to stop participating in the thread if they offer up a differing opinion as well. Sorry you feel that way, and for your sake, I'll refrain from posting here again...

"But it's your right to speech"
and
"I'm to busy to care what others think"

keep on posting...
or don't

it's your Constitutional Right In Action either way!

[rnh120]

hey to books 24, I have know you for a very long time and I respect you. but I have to disagree. Like I said before I do not "fly" the flag, but I do not see anything wrong with it. There is a lot of prejudice people in this world but it is not just white against black. I see a lot of black against white in my job. and I don't even want to go there. I am just sick of everything being about color. I like people for people. If you are nice to me than I am nice to you. I do not dislike people for the color of their skin. that is just to me dumb. I equally donot like people of both races who can't see past color. It for god sake is just a pigment. We are all human and we all have our flaws. and don't get me wrong, this is not saying you are any of these things because I know you are not. You are one person I know honestly loves people for people and not the color of their skin. and I understand your situation you are stuck in both worlds which I think is a good thing because you see both sides. I wish it would all just be one world and no one look at color but unfortantly some people do. but the flag is just a flag no less and no more. It can symbolize I guess whatever we want it to and I for one think history. I do not agree with the slavery but I was not alive and neither was anybody here today so there is no point in anyone getting mad at anyone for it. what is done is done. I just wish we could all realize we are american and we should stick together and not be against one another.

[books_24]

Originally Posted by rnh120

hey to books 24, I have know you for a very long time and I respect you. but I have to disagree. Like I said before I do not "fly" the flag, but I do not see anything wrong with it. There is a lot of prejudice people in this world but it is not just white against black. I see a lot of black against white in my job. and I don't even want to go there. I am just sick of everything being about color. I like people for people. If you are nice to me than I am nice to you. I do not dislike people for the color of their skin. that is just to me dumb. I equally donot like people of both races who can't see past color. It for god sake is just a pigment. We are all human and we all have our flaws. and don't get me wrong, this is not saying you are any of these things because I know you are not. You are one person I know honestly loves people for people and not the color of their skin. and I understand your situation you are stuck in both worlds which I think is a good thing because you see both sides. I wish it would all just be one world and no one look at color but unfortantly some people do. but the flag is just a flag no less and no more. It can symbolize I guess whatever we want it to and I for one think history. I do not agree with the slavery but I was not alive and neither was anybody here today so there is no point in anyone getting mad at anyone for it. what is done is done. I just wish we could all realize we are american and we should stick together and not be against one another.

Hey. I am not sure yet who you are. I agree with your post, 100%. I am also sick of everything being about color. Actually, my life is not really about color at all. I do not know if that makes sense or not. We do not discuss it regularly, nor do we use the situation as a crutch. It really is a waste of breath to get into arguments or even discussions about color with other people, because in the end, it won't matter at all.
I agree, there is rampant racism. I also experience this at work, sometimes. There are bad people on both sides.
It is true, many people see the flag as a symbol of history. But many more see it as much more than that, and that is why I see it in a negative light. I had a close relative that wore a shirt with the flag on it in high school, more than one. To her, it was simply the popular thing to wear at the time. It was about fashion. She did not even know the history, I would bet.
For the most part, to me the flag sends the wrong message, whether you are intending to or not.
Thanks for your post.

[Kagan]

Originally Posted by BackhomeinBama

In a vaccum? Perhaps more to the point, the proper set of values is laid out very plainly in a book that we all have access to...The Holy Bible...

I'm not going to save the world by degrading people over their choices that are protected by our constitution, but I can certainly affect my own children by teaching them the set of values from the good book.

1 Corinthians 10:23-24

[Sweet Pea]

Originally Posted by AUFAN

I am sure Rev Al Sharpton or some fancy suited lawyer (Not talking about you Dlite) could find out some way of turning it around to say that I offend a person with AIDS or whatever else they could think of.

You are probably right, AUFAN, I mowed my neighbors grass one time, which I did all the time, but her grandaughter in law told me to stop because it was making her yard look bad. "Live life like you mean it" is my motto.

[demopolite]

Bamasee, most of the arguments contained in the document you've linked to are specious and were refuted by scholars years ago (particularly the insidious "many blacks liked being owned like cattle" argument). Copying and pasting online bon mots from amateur historians is no substititute for reading well-researched, fair books about the real South. That document celebrates what's become termed in academic circles as the "lost cause" myth - an ameliorated and symplified version of history adopted by a defeated people to explain and defend their defeat. Examples also exist in Roman, Greek, Egyptian, Jewish, Iranian (Persian) and many other cultures.

I keep hearing a lot about "history," but I'm still looking for someone to tell me what history, but I'm still looking for some explanation of exactly what"good" history those who fly or support flying the flag feel that symbol contains that so overwhelms the "bad" history. The history of the South includes slavery, lynchings, segregation, the murder of those who supported civil rights - that history simply can't be ignored. I'm asking how those who fly or support flying of the flag reconcile that history with the "good" history.

Here's an example: I'm an American, and I fly the American flag. America has done some horrible things, admittedly: slavery, segregation, Japanese internment camps, the Trail of Tears. However, the basic principle of America is freedom, and overarching all of America's faults is the American Constitution and the. Fundamental rights it promises to American citizens. The American sytem of government gives some of the broadest freedoms known in the entire world to its citizens, and is therefore one of the only countries where citizens who have been wronged and had their rights violated can peacefully petition for redress. Just look at the civil rights movement - the battle for equal rights for blacks was won not by a call to arms, but by a peaceful but powerful push to be equally protected by the Constitution.
What overarching ideals did the CSA - a sovereign nation with its own Constitution and system of goverment - hold that makes it deserving of that sort of respect and veneration? While much has been made of the right to free speech on this thread (and let me make clear that I'm not in any way questioning anyone's right to fly the Confederate battle flag), it is worth noting that the Constitution of the CSA contained no protections for free speech, or freedom of assembly, or the right to a free press. There was also no provision that promised due process of law. Instead, those were left to the individual state constitutuions - as is normal under the governmental priciple of "confederacy". However, the Alabama consitution did not contain those provisions either. In fact it still doesn't.

Also: someone above stated that they supported flying of the battle flag rather than the national flag of the Confederacy because they were showing support for the actual soldiers who fought and died in the War. Do you have family who fought at anytime in the US military or do you support the actions of the US military in wars fought since 1865? Do you regularly fly the flags of those branches of the US military? If not, why?

Books - I know it's something you usually try to avoid, so I wanted to say that I respect and appreciate your chiming in on this.

[Sweet Pea]

Originally Posted by demopolite

Also: someone above stated that they supported flying of the battle flag rather than the national flag of the Confederacy because they were showing support for the actual soldiers who fought and died in the War. Do you have family who fought at anytime in the US military or do you support the actions of the US military in wars fought since 1865? Do you regularly fly the flags of those branches of the US military? If not, why?

Books - I know it's something you usually try to avoid, so I wanted to say that I respect and appreciate your chiming in on this.

Demopolite, if it is the statement I made, (below) then you better back up and read it again. I said, If I fly. I didn't say I supported flying the battle flag rather than the National Flag of the Confedercy. And yes, I have family who fought in the US military since 1865, I have my US flag flying as we speak.
You didn't answer my question on first impressions. Why? And another thing. Why do you have to take someones statement and blow it all out of proportion. And insenuate things they didn't even say. Bad, bad impression.

Originally Posted by Sweet Pea

Demopolite, you stated in a prior post about first impressions. Do you care what someone's first impression is of you? I couldn't care less. You can't judge a book by looking at its cover. So why put so much in first impressions. Five people can be looking at the same thing, I wonder how many different first impression you get. Bet 3 or more.

By the way. If I fly the Confederate Battle Flag, it is out of respect for my Grandparents that fought the battle. Right or Wrong, they thought it was right at the time. One gave his life.

[demopolite]

Bear with me on this...I'm trying to read all of this on a 2x2 screen and it's rather difficult. Tell you what - I'll just wait until I get to a real computer, reread and respond.


Posted via Mobile Device

[mmcd3182]

I hope since some have already brought up Christian ideas, and us, most all being Christians of some sort in these forums, that I can touch on the "Christian POV" -point of view- on this subject.

Originally Posted by Kagan

1 Corinthians 10:23-24

Many people who have brought up the "Christian Points" in this thread forget this. I like this section where Paul is discussing the eating of meat from sacrifices to idols.

There's a parallel here at least.

As he does many times, Paul here is talking to pagan converts, and also the more "freethinking ex-pagan" Christians of his time. In this section ... around chapters 7 to 14 he is discussing Christian freedom, or Christian liberty.
Some thought it was alright to be around pagan events, and to even eat the meat left over from idol animal sacrifices.
So we have people still holding on and doing and using some of the things from their "previous lives."

Some people (including Paul in a way) thought this was bordering on the dreaded, "serving God and mammon" territory.

21 You cannot drink the chalice of the Lord and the chalice of devils: you cannot be partakers of the table of the Lord and of the table of devils. 22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than he? All things are lawful for me: but all things are not expedient. 23 All things are lawful for me: but all things do not edify.


While Paul clearly says that "All things are lawful for me," he immediately draws the unclear line in the dirt saying, "all things do not edify."

I'd like to also include the conclusion of this section (vs. 24 onto 33).

24 Let no man seek his own, but that which is another's. 25 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, eat: asking no question for conscience' sake. 26 The earth is the Lord's and the fulness thereof. 27 If any of them that believe not, invite you, and you be willing to go: eat of any thing that is set before you, asking no question for conscience' sake. 28 But if any man say: This has been sacrificed to idols: do not eat of it, for his sake that told it and for conscience' sake. 29 Conscience I say, not thy own, but the other's. For why is my liberty judged by another man's conscience? 30 If I partake with thanksgiving, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks? 31 Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatsoever else you do, do all to the glory of God. 32 Be without offence to the Jew, and to the Gentiles and to the church of God: 33 As I also in all things please all men, not seeking that which is profitable to myself but to many: that they may be saved.

Here, he clearly ties it up in saying "Do what you do, but do everything to the glory of God." 32 -- "Be without offense to the Jew, and Gentiles, and the Church" i.e. everyone. Consider others before yourself. Some had a problem with this earlier in the thread.

In summation -- if you eat the meat of idols, don't be in the presence of those who it will offend, or cause the creation of stumbling block in their eyes. And you do this not for them, but for yourself -- for in not being in offense to any man, you are more apt to serve the purpose in this situation -- to become closer to your neighbors and to be able to carry on the spreading of the salvation provided by God, and, not to mention -- being in good favor with God.


As we keep getting off the topic of 1960 and keep going back to 1860, we forget that it IS possible for a Battle Flag or Sticker or Heritage to offend others, or at least create a block in someone's path by what we say, do, display. While we have the right or the liberty, does it edify all?

If we put up something or do something that is going to distance ourselves automatically from other people -- or "repel" people from us, then what does it benefit? I don't see it benefiting "them" or "us" in any way.

But to digress -- Paul's Christianity does demand much modesty.

[bilmo]

Don't know how Sharpton finally got into this post. But it would be interesting if a building was put up in Demopolis and the next day started to fly a flag from one of the Muslim countries. I wonder how many people would then protect the flying of the flag because they are expressing pride in thier heritage, but meant no ill will toward this country

[mmcd3182]

Originally Posted by bilmo

Don't know how Sharpton finally got into this post. But it would be interesting if a building was put up in Demopolis and the next day started to fly a flag from one of the Muslim countries. I wonder how many people would then protect the flying of the flag because they are expressing pride in thier heritage, but meant no ill will toward this country

That is interesting....
how does this grab ya?

[Bamassee]

demopolite, I agree that copying and pasting this article in no way completely represents the entire history of the Confederate flag or that portion of our nations history. I have not given an opinion on this subject, although I have defined my thoughts when I do see the stars n' bars flying. I suppose, by my posted thoughts, one could assume that I believe there was little to no connection between the war of the states and slavery. That assumption would be incorrect.

I have done some research, qualified by professors and historians into the history of our civil war and Southern heritage. I have read and been to seminars addressing this subject. It certainly does not qualify me as an expert nor does it warrant my dismissal of research conducted by those porfessors and historians. My conclusion with regards to my limited research is that there are descreptancies on both sides of the spectrum with regards to the involvement of Southern blacks and the events that led to this war. I dont believe I read in my post "many blacks liked being owned like cattle". Nor do I believe the author's intent was to suggest anyone enjoyed being enslaved.

As with all individuals, there were many reasons and beliefs each solder had for fighting this war. Some did enlist with slavery being their source of motivation but not all. I imagine that I should have included "the other side" but you and others are aptly covering that perspective of the flag and it's recent history as an oppressive, offensive symbol for the black community.

Precluded by "just to throw this out there", I offered information from an organization that made some very valid and historically correct statements on this subject. I did not dismiss their content as "specious" nor am I so closed minded on this subject that I am unable to take both arguments into consideration. You've raised some very valid and important issues with regard to this debate but as a scholar, and in particular, your chosen profession, surely you've considered there are valid historical points to be made by each side and depending on yours or any individuals preconceived notions or beliefs with regards to ANY subject, each individuals conclusion is determined by which history they're willing to accept as fact. Do you not agree that there are usually 2 and sometimes 3 sides to ANY story......Yours, mine AND what the actual, irrefutable truth to be?

I dont believe this flag to be symbolic only of slavery and oppression although I do believe there were those that thought it justified to fight for their "right" at that time to own slaves......I also believe that some had the reason of terriffs and taxation as their motivating factor and even more with other reasons...I also beleive that those that have used this flag as a symbol for their hate of other cultures and race have bastardized the meaning of this flag for those whose heritage (theres that word you're taking issue with again) and history include something other than race, hate and slavery.

Remember the "X" with regards to Malcolm X? That became the warped justification for these hate groups to fly the flag as a symbol of their racist beliefs.....I remember the quote "you fly your flag and I'll fly mine" with references to the "X" that was showing up in the black communities as a "symbol" to them AND the hate groups flying the rebel flag. Again, that just served to increase the negative symbolic nature of the stars n' bars along with the "X" for it's symbolization to the black community.

You've asked for information on others opinions but if they offer information or opinions that differ from your own, although more subdued than usual, you challenge or at this point "harp" about the ommission of historical facts as justification, question the validity of historical facts, dismiss historical facts altogether or suggest that those that are the most vocal are uneducated in Civil War history. They've answered, they've given their ancestorial information, they've included THEIR truths yet they are left wondering why they obliged.

[illegal smile]

I have the blood of four Confederate soldiers running through my veins and I'm proud of every one of them for standing up for what they believed. By the way, none of them were slave owners.
I have flown the Confederate battle flag as well as some of the other Confederate flags....right under the American flag. Nothing makes me madder than these hate groups with a Confederate flag and a swastika side by side and anyone who allows a group like that to turn them against the rebel flag looking for something to gripe about.
As far as why I fly my battle flag....because I'm proud of my heritage and want to. If it offends someone, tough.

[Kagan]

Originally Posted by Bamassee

They've answered, they've given their ancestorial information, they've included THEIR truths yet they are left wondering why they obliged.

demopolite, I have wondered why this was important, too. I mean, do I get +1 point for each CSA veteran? That would give me 6 ancestral points!

Does saddlebum get -5 for each Yankee veteran? He He, that scalawag will have negative points. What will that mean?