That Pesky Rebel Flag

[bilmo]

You know that is not the first time that I have heard that story and it is always from a white person that has a black guy as a best friend. That was one person's opinion. Try asking Clarence Thomas opinion and I am sure he will agree. I am black and you will never hear me harping on slavery or what caused it. But I did grow up in Demopolis and what I experienced there had absolutley nothing to do with slavery. So your friend could not be speaking about his experience with slavery and undoubtedly he did not have any harmful experiences while living in the US. But if that was so then why did he move to England. An experience of mine is that Me and several co-workers would always hang out together because we were doing the same type of work and would meet just about every day. One day one of my co-workers starting explaining the same thing to me about how Black people felt. I asked him how did he know that and he said that he got it from his Black friends. Since we hung in the same circles I asked him to name one of his black friends. The only name he could come up with was mine. I happened to have worked for everything that I have and cannot remember ever receiving any special treatment. I harbor no ill will toward any one. But I know and remember history. So lets not gloss over it.

[demopolite]

But the Union Jack is the flag of the country in which he was born...not the flag of a long- defunct country that fought against the country in which he was born...right?

Also, can we just state here and now that segregation, denial of voting rights, and intimidation did not happen hundreds of years ago. It happened in the second half of the 20th century. It's easy to get off on tangents here, guys and girls. Let's keep the discussion civil (no pun intended) and on point.

Couple of questions for those who fly the flag to "honor ancestors, right or wrong": if your grandfather were - say - a Nazi soldier or a KGB agent, or even one of the officers charged with minding the Japanese interment camps, would you still celebrate their actions, right or wrong, because they stood up for what they believed in, or is it distinctly related to the Civil War? Not trying to pick a fight...just think about it. I'm interested in whether it's the ancestory, the geography,
or the history that affects your stance more.

Posted via Mobile Device

[Mystic_Rhythms]

Originally Posted by demopolite

But the Union Jack is the flag of the country in which he was born...not the flag of a long- defunct country that fought against the country in which he was born...right?

Also, can we just state here and now that segregation, denial of voting rights, and intimidation did not happen hundreds of years ago. It happened in the second half of the 20th century. It's easy to get off on tangents here, guys and girls. Let's keep the discussion civil (no pun intended) and on point.

Couple of questions for those who fly the flag to "honor ancestors, right or wrong": if your grandfather were - say - a Nazi soldier or a KGB agent, or even one of the officers charged with minding the Japanese interment camps, would you still celebrate their actions, right or wrong, because they stood up for what they believed in, or is it distinctly related to the Civil War? Not trying to pick a fight...just think about it. I'm interested in whether it's the ancestory, the geography,
or the history that affects your stance more.

Posted via Mobile Device

That's a hard question to answer. I would have to be in that position to answer it so any answer I could give would be purely a guesstimation. I know that my uncle on my dads side of the family told me a few years before he died that when he served in WWII he actually became good friends with a German soldier that was captured by the Allied forces. To him, it didn't matter what flag he fought under or for what purpose they fought, they found out they had alot in common. They both liked deer hunting and all that stuff and had it not been for the war and the fact that they both were an ocean apart they could've been great friends. To me, that attest to the fact that when you were called up to defend your country and you were in the military, that's what you did...defended your country to the best of your ability. The same can be said for the majority of Confed. soldiers. They fought for their country and alot of them died. The Civil War was brother against brother, father against son. North against South. You made your choice about what side you wanted to defend and you stood by it. The battle flag of the Confeds to me ONLY represents those who chose to fight when their country asked them to step forward and for the blood they shed on the field. Yeah, the South lost that war, but even the Northern Generals had alot of respect for the South in the way they fought. In every war, someone has to win and someone has to lose. But losing doesn't mean you have to forget all about it.

[mmcd3182]

Originally Posted by bilmo

You know that is not the first time that I have heard that story and it is always from a white person that has a black guy as a best friend. That was one person's opinion. Try asking Clarence Thomas opinion and I am sure he will agree. ...

You know, I was JUST about to go through the seven or eight pages of this thread and pick out all the quotes where someone said "I'm not racist, I have a great friend that is black" or "I'm not racist, I work and get along fine with many people that are black."

Why do so many people think that "having a <some ethnicity other than your own> friend" makes you not-a-racist.... that's not what it means.

[Testrackwoman]

I'm not raciest... I hate everyone equally. LOL Sorry, had to lighten the mood a bit.

[Mystic_Rhythms]

Originally Posted by mmcd3182

.....
Why do so many people think that "having a <some ethnicity other than your own> friend" makes you not-a-racist.... that's not what it means.

But by that statement could you be saying that we are racist....?? If I were truly racist I wouldn't even associate with anyone but my own race, correct? Maybe I'm confused by this statement.

[saddlebum]

Originally Posted by 2lib4dem

What is the point of this? As I stated earlier, who sold Africans into salvery does not matter as much as the current remnants of slavery in AMERICA? Should African Americans feel less slighted because they were originally sold into slavery by Africans? Africans could not have sold slaves if there were not purchasers. This article is just justification as to why the UNITED STATES should not be held accountable for the atrocities perpetuated on blacks during and after slavery. The whole thing in offensive.

WHOA ! The "current remnants of slavery" ? After going back over this thread several times, it became evident that the history of slavery would eventually be mentioned . Admittedly history can be offensive but it happened and it's not going away no matter how much we would enjoy ignoring such .

There can never be justification or excuses for slavery . But the public display of "that pesky rebel flag" and/or denying the complete history of slavery are unproductive . To my amazement, many black people of my generation were unaware of the true history of slavery . Some actually thought white men sailed to the shores of Africa, simply herded up a group of black people and sailed to the South . There's much left out when we don't examine the details of how horrible the extraction of black people from their homeland and the transporting them to their final destination really was . Thousands died on the trip over and many had already died at the hands of their brothers in Africa .

Many years ago I read a novel , "The Sun is My Undoing", about the slave trade . The author, who I don't remember, even knew the names of the many tribes . The book was at least 2 inches thick and was very informative but difficult to read because of the cruelty . It was a best-seller 50-60 years ago .

Black people today should be extremely proud that their forefathers were strong and resilient enough to survive those terrible ordeals . Generations of white people have recognized, sympathized and contributed to their introduction into this society .

"The remnants of slavery "? A black man's tribulations today are less than trivial to what their forefathers experienced . These "remnants" shouldn't be much of an obstacle .

[TinkerBell]

Dating back way before the rebal flag was ever thought of, WHITE people where sent to america as slaves for things such as not paying taxes and other petty crimes. Thats how my family got here. Sent as slaves from England. So should I take offence to the english flag?

[mmcd3182]

Originally Posted by Mystic_Rhythms

But by that statement could you be saying that we are racist....?? If I were truly racist I wouldn't even associate with anyone but my own race, correct? Maybe I'm confused by this statement.

That's a preconceived notion. Wow, we are nearly 130 posts into this thread and no one has set down a "line" for what racism is. It is hard to say. Like many words dealing with touchy issues, the meaning of racism has been skewed; it has been extremely been mis-used over the past one hundred years.

When I think of racism, I define it as any nuance of thought that someone is beneath you based solely on their race.

As for some published definitions, take the following:

racism
n.

1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

racist rac'ist adj. & n.

I believe when most people today use the word racism, they are implying the second definition: "Discrimination or prejudice based on race." At the heart of this is the first definition: "The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others. True racism seems to now only exist in hate groups. I mean by this, most people would not admit even to themselves that they think person X of race X is superior to person Y of race Y simply because race X > race Y. The idea is there, but that's not how we really perceive the word when it is said anymore. We gear more towards the second definition.

So, saying "I have a black friend" or even HAVING a black friend still allows you to be a racist, or have racist thoughts or ideas. I don't understand why so many people think if they can kindly associate with a person of another race/color/ethnicity then they could not possibly be racist. That's the bad thing about racism in the country today -- most of it is veiled in a false self-assurance that one is not racist or prejudicial.

[demopolite]

Originally Posted by TinkerBell

Dating back way before the rebal flag was ever thought of, WHITE people where sent to america as slaves for things such as not paying taxes and other petty crimes. Thats how my family got here. Sent as slaves from England. So should I take offence to the english flag?

This statement is patently false.

Slavery is an economic system that relies on involuntary servitude. In the colonies, and later in America, slaves were purchased by an individual for life, and their children were also property of the slaveowner.

White indentured servants were not slaves because their servitude was voluntary and their children were not bound to the master.

White convicts were not slaves because they were not owned by an individual. They were prisoners of the state.

White slavery never existed in America. This is historical fact.

[saddlebum]

Originally Posted by mmcd3182

That's a preconceived notion. Wow, we are nearly 130 posts into this thread and no one has set down a "line" for what racism is. It is hard to say. Like many words dealing with touchy issues, the meaning of racism has been skewed; it has been extremely been mis-used over the past one hundred years.

When I think of racism, I define it as any nuance of thought that someone is beneath you based solely on their race.

As for some published definitions, take the following:

racism

n.

1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

racist rac'ist adj. & n.

I believe when most people today use the word racism, they are implying the second definition: "Discrimination or prejudice based on race." At the heart of this is the first definition: "The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others. True racism seems to now only exist in hate groups. I mean by this, most people would not admit even to themselves that they think person X of race X is superior to person Y of race Y simply because race X > race Y. The idea is there, but that's not how we really perceive the word when it is said anymore. We gear more towards the second definition.

So, saying "I have a black friend" or even HAVING a black friend still allows you to be a racist, or have racist thoughts or ideas. I don't understand why so many people think if they can kindly associate with a person of another race/color/ethnicity then they could not possibly be racist. That's the bad thing about racism in the country today -- most of it is veiled in a false self-assurance that one is not racist or prejudicial.

Well hell !! Now I'm thoroughly confused as to whether I'm a racist or not, and I'm certainly not going to claim I have any black friends because that might stigmatize me automatically . At the moment I'm examining my "false self-assurance" which is confusing me even more so I'm just going back to my ole normal self and forget I ever foolishly read this thread . One thing is for sure, I can't jump .
Thank goodness, I never smoked any of that "stuff"

[mmcd3182]

Originally Posted by saddlebum

Well hell !! Now I'm thoroughly confused as to whether I'm a racist or not, and I'm certainly not going to claim I have any black friends because that might stigmatize me automatically . At the moment I'm examining my "false self-assurance" which is confusing me even more so I'm just going back to my ole normal self and forget I ever foolishly read this thread . One thing is for sure, I can't jump .
Thank goodness, I never smoked any of that "stuff"

Sorry to confuse you, I thought the post was pretty easy to understand.

How exactly can you examine your false self assurance??? If you are aware of it -- then it's no longer false!

Sure you're not smoking any of that "stuff" right now???

[Meisterschutze]

I fly the flag to represent the states rights for which my ancestors fought and killed for. The America flag, on the other hand, represents globalism, abortion, homosexuality and ther crap, so it's not for me.

[mmcd3182]

Originally Posted by Meisterschutze

I fly the flag to represent the states rights for which my ancestors fought and killed for. The America flag, on the other hand, represents globalism, abortion, homosexuality and ther crap, so it's not for me.

lol -- no groans yet to your post yet (when I first saw it), but expect them in high numbers -- I don't think you'll find many here that are going to like that statement. This is about the Rebel Battle Flag... not the Stars & Bars. And right now Patriotism is in high demand and exhibition.

[TinkerBell]

So when people where chained, torn from there homes and put on a ship and sent to america by force, from england, they where not slaves even thought they worked for no money just a place to lay down and a little to eat? hmmmm sounds like a slave to me.