That Pesky Rebel Flag

[demopolite]

Well, the lawn decoration thread was getting around to it, so let's go ahead and put it out there:

What does the rebel flag signify to you? What's the first thought that comes to your head when you see it? What do you think of the people who display it? Has its connection to the Civil War, Jim Crow, and the Klan inalterably tainted its "heritage" or "historical" significance?

Also, just humor me on this, if you are a flyer/supporter, please include you ancestors connection to the South, the Civil War, and their relative contemporary societal position - call it an impromptu demopolite sociological study.

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[Mystic_Rhythms]

I was also waiting on this one to start. So I guess I'll start off saying that in MY eyes, it serves as a reminder of the past..good or bad. We didn't get to where we are today without it. People who automatically assume that the flag is a symbol of slavery and oppresion should study the history a little better. It's a symbol of the Confederate States of America.
My families history has my great-great grandfather (not sure if that's enuff greats..lol) fighting in the Civil War during the battle for Atlanta. He was born in Mobile, AL and moved to South Arkansas and then came back here in his late teenage years to fight for the Con. States. He was boarding a train after the battle in Atlanta and was killed by the train somehow. Don't know HOW he was killed by the train but that's all the records stated. My aunt actually hired some people years back to trace our family tree on the Reynolds' side of the family and that's how I learned that much. Noone in my family owned any slaves (according to historic records). My family came to the U.S. from Ireland as...more or less...slaves themselves. If people dig far enough back you'll find that not only were blacks brought here but also some whites were as well. However my ancestors where not taken to the South to pick cotton, they were dropped off up North around the Boston area to work in the fishing and whatever else markets they had up that way. They were not paid for there services either. They were only given room and board if that's what you want to call it. True they didn't have it as hard as the blacks that were taken to the cotton plantations in the South but none the less they were brought against their wills.
So in conclusion, I feel a sense of pride when I see the rebel flag flying. Not as much as when I see Old Glory waving but pride all the same. It's STILL a symbol of freedom in a sense. Because without it, where would we be?

[CedarSam]

On my Mother's side, she's a direct descendant of Gen. Burnide. who chose to fight for the North.
Being from Virginia, it was brother against brother. (what a horrible image)
When I see the Rebel Flag, I see it as I do all flags, it honors those who died for what they believed in.
I never think of slavery...because I know for a fact, at the Slave Market in Fayetteville NC, they flew the American flag from a pole on the roof, before the civil war.
I can't associate this flag with hatred either, only one that should be respected and honored.
There have been many versions of the Confederate flag.
One called the Stars and Bars.....that was designed from a person in Marion Alabama.
When I see the Rebel Flag I see 3 things....
A war between the states, bloody battles that changes our nation, and Lynyrd Skynyrd...lol...well you asked.
I sometimes think of people tho, that fly the flag, as the granny charactor on the Beverly Hill billies.
She didn't believe the war was ever over and a kept a gun ready for those yankee vermon.
this is just my opinion and mine only...(I try to repect others for having theirs)
I do not fly the flag....but I love American history, and see it as a part of my past.

[demopolite]

I don't fly the flag and - to be honest - I admit that I hold preconceived notions about those who do. My anathema toward the flag stems not from the Civil War or slavery, but from Jim Crow and the Klan. To me, the use of the flag by these groups - with no contemporary outcry from other whites about its use by these groups - tainted the pure "heritage" value of the flag. I can't look at it without thinking of oppression, lynchings, and denial of both human and Constitutional rights to a group on the sole basis of the color of their skin.

My father's family were North Carolinians at the time of the War and neither owned slaves nor fought on either side (mountain folk, you know). My mother's side included plantation owners who did own slaves.


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[saddlebum]

To my knowledge, no one in my family has flown a REBEL flag since the Civil War . An uncle and two half brothers of my great-great grandfather fought for the South , one was killed .
My great-great.great-great grandfather, a Revolutionary War soldier, from Sevier Co. Tennessee, had slaves . The church he built still stands at Kodak, it's an antique shop now . The church also served as the school , whites went to church and school in the day and all of the blacks went to church AND school at night .
As I've stated in another thread, my great-great grandfather remained loyal to the Union throughout the Civil War . I'm proud of this .

[Mystic_Rhythms]

Exactly! We've got the Klan and Neo Nazis and skin heads all out who've tainted the rebel flag. It causes people to have preconcieved notions about it. I'll never believe that the Civil War started because Southern white slave owners refused to give up their slaves because the North said so. No, it goes much deeper. Taxes and tariffs (sp?), taxation without representation (almost exactly the same thing that happened many years before the Civil War...but with another country...'member?). It wasn't all about slavery and oppresion, that was but one facet of the whole thing. So that's another reason why I'm not ashamed of the rebel flag. There's a ton of history there. It's a part of us all.

[dave]

IMO, the reasons given for flying the flag don't outweigh the reasons folks hate it so much. There are a million awesome things to love about the south, and this flag isn't one of them.

[saddlebum]

The Civil War started when hot-headed imbeciles fired on the United States flag at Fort Sumter . The issue between north and south was the question of slavery in the territories and subsequent new states, the northern states were worried that if they allowed slavery there , the south would have an overwhelming advantage in Congress . Doing away with slavery altogether didn't come up until Lincoln used it to his political advantage to get elected .

Kagan, where are you when I need you.....

[demopolite]

Well, taxation without representation certainly wasn't one of the contributing issues, as the Southern states represented a huge percentage of the American Congress. And while "states' rights" is an oft-cited reasoning, I'm always led back to the question "A state's right to do what?". Now I don't believe that the valiant Northerners crusaded for the rights of the poor oppressed slaves as their sole reason for entering the War. In fact, it seems that both sides used the slaves as pawns in their political and economic machinations. Anyone interested in the lead-up to, and the details of, the Civil War would do well to look into Greenville, MS, native Shelby Foote's many books on the subject.

But all that aside, I view the Confederate battle flag in much the same way I view the swastika: at one time, the symbol may have had one meaning, but the symbol was so appropriated and transformed by an intervening party as to make the association of that party inextricable from the symbol itself.


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[A&A'sMommy]

to me the rebel flag symbolizes southern pride, I'm a PROUD souther girl.

[demopolite]

But what exactly is Southern heritage?

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[bamaraised]

To me it's the inheritence of the stubborn, rebelious, stand up for what you believe attitude. It is the inhertiance of the simple way of life that works. It's the "still focused on God and not just the earth" way of life.

My family originated in the South on my fathers side, I've traced it back to the early 1900's. I don't know any of my ties to the Civil War but I'll keep looking. The values and morals I've been taught are typical of those taught in the south.

Demopolite, a song that can kind of sum this up for me would be "Simple Man" by Charlie Daniels.

Disclaimer: This post is not implying that southern heritige is greater than any other heritige represented by other regions.

[Kagan]

Originally Posted by demopolite

an impromptu demopolite sociological study

1) Great-great-grandpa Moore owned a plantation near Forest, MS. Buried his cotton when the Yankees marched through, then dug it up after they had gone. He did not fight in the war.

2) Great-great-grandpa Bell owned slaves near Guntersville, AL. He was wounded at Chickamauga. Some of the slaves were trusted to go get him from the field hospital and bring him back home.

3) Great-great-grandfathers Gilbert, Massengill, and White were hard-working merchantmen/businessmen, but I can't find any connection with slavery. Their participation in the Civil War seems to have been as soldiers in the CSA Armies of Mississippi and Tennessee. IIRC one of them surrendered at Vicksburg.

4) Great-great-grandpa Simpson fought in the Civil War for the Confederacy, but he was nothing more than an old hillbilly soldier from Walker County, AL.

5) Great-great-grandfather Tullis...well...apparentlly from all indications he was a Native American Indian, but further information has been lost.

6) Finally, Great-great-grandfather Jenkins, a poor Fayette County hillbilly...served in Company K, 10th Alabama Cavalry Regiment, Roddey's Brigade, Roddey's Division, Forrest's Cavalry Corps. His unit primarily had scouting duties and guarded fords across the Tennessee River. In the last days of the war, he fought in the delaying actions against Wilson's Raid through Alabama. After the Civil War (about 1869-70), he walked out of a KKK recruitment meeting vowing that none of his offspring would ever join the organization...that has been true of everyone of his male offsprings through me.

What does the rebel flag signify to you? What's the first thought that comes to your head when you see it? What do you think of the people who display it? Has its connection to the Civil War, Jim Crow, and the Klan inalterably tainted its "heritage" or "historical" significance?

It ultimately represents defiance...then and now. During the Civil War, it basically represented the most dysfunctional government to ever appear on earth...read the aforementioned Shelby Foote for more info on this. My ancestors who fought under it were traitors to the United States of America. Yes, they fought courageously with glory and honor...but they were still traitors. Since then, the flag's connection to the KKK, segregation, and racial hatred is much too strong to overcome.

I do own three Rebel flags...not for public display. One has historical value due to where and when it flew; only three other people know its story...and only two of us know its secure location. The second Rebel flag belonged to a dearly loved relative who died as a child without ever comprehending its negative energy...this is the one I'll never part with...not because of what it represented...but because of who owned it. My third rebel flag is in a little display of all the flags that have ever flown over Alabama (USA, Rebel, Union Jack, Royalist French, and Royalist Spanish)...I did use that display once when I taught Alabama History.

[CedarSam]

This thread made me wanna get out my flat top and pick a little....
let's sing along...Ya ont to?


THE NIGHT THEY DROVE OLD DIXIE DOWN
Robbie Robertson

|C | |

Am C/G F Em Dm
Virgil Cain is my name and I served on the Danville train,
Am C/G F Em Dm
Till Stonewall's cavalry came and tore up the tracks again.
C/E F C Dm
In the winter of sixty-five we were hungry, just barely alive.
C/E F
By May the tenth Richmond had fell.
C Dm D
It was a time I remember all so well.


C/G F C/G
The night they drove old Dixie down,
F
And the bells were ringing.
C/G F C/G
The night they drove old Dixie down,
F
And the people were singing. They went...
C/G Am G F
"La la la la la la, la la la la la la la la la."


Back with my wife in Tennessee, when one day she called to me.
"Virgil, quick! Come see! There goes Robert E. Lee!"
Now I don't mind I'm chopping wood,
And I don't care if the money's no good.
You take what you need and you leave the rest,
But they should never have taken the very best.

(refrain)

Like my father before me, I work the land.
And like my brother above me, who took a rebel stand.
He was just eighteen, proud and brave,
But a Yankee laid him in his grave.
I swear my the mud below my feet,
You can't raise the cane back up when it's in the feed.

(refrain)

|C C/B |Bb Am |Ab G |

(refrain)

[rnh120]

I personally do not "fly" the flag or have anything with it on it. It does not symbol hate to me, but history. Like said above many groups and organizations have used it to represent hate and that is just ignorance. Like I said it just represents history to me that I am proud of. Whether you are from the north or south or had relatives that fought for either side they fought for what they believed in. If you look back in history most people did not own slaves only rich plantation owners basically. And if you look back the civil war was really not about slavery. It came into play but it is not what most people portray it as. When people think of the civil war slavery automaticlly comes to mind and in reality played a minor part. as for my heritige I don't know a lot about my dads side think they were from ireland and went to georgia? on my mom's side I am a direct decendant of jefferson davis, which I think is pretty cool. anyway JMO.